Category: Jam Session
Hi, Does anyone here use Music braille? I'm learning it, but It's really hard. Especially doing Bar over bar, even with a simple minuet in F by bach is hard.
Matthew
I took a braille music class a few years ago. In short i found it very, very difficult. I know there are some people who are really good with it, but I'm definitely not one of them. Good luck.
I did growing up.
The part that's good is you can actually see what you're trying to play rather than having to rely on listening to someone else's interpretation.
The tough part is you have to memorize it in parts before you can play: I did it measure for measure which drove everyone in my household completely insane, but it at least got the job done, complaints or no complaints.
The best way to do bar over bar is to simultaneously read both parts: your left hand on the left hand bar and the right hand on the right hand bar.
Frankly I think it would be easier to learn on wind instruments for several reasons:
First, with winds, you often start with eight notes which are the easiest to read in Braille: the note c is the letter d, the note d is the letter e, and so on up to the note a being the letter i and b being the letter j.
Then, you add dot 6 to make quarters, dot 3 to make halves and both dots 3 and 6 to make whole notes.
The hardest thing for both you and your instructor is deciphering the meaning of symbols: your instructor will no doubt not be at all familiar with Braille music, so the task is yours. Here I got lucky because I have a two-volume Braille Music Symbols dictionary which I have never seen elsewhere and saved me plenty of times.
Your frustration will come in that you cannot sight read. I was no virtuososo: As professionals go I was at my best, nothing more than mediocre, and never scaled to the grand heights of classical music that some have. That is only in part due to the magnitude of work Braille music takes, but in equal measure due to my fascination with electronics once I discovered it, and if you've got an engineer's mind, once you go electronic, it's hard to go back. I still love the piano but don't really play anymore: too many other irons in the fire.
I've played around with the recorder some, even played with a group occasionally,, and since the Internet got a hold of real classical recorder music which is very easy to read in Braille.
But repertoir is really one of our greatest and rather insurmountable challenges. While my friends in high school had the sound track to A Clockwork Orange and other famous synth works, no such luck from Braille music sources.
While now, Native American flute players have taken what was once an elitist medicine-man knowledge and written down the actual music for the rest of us to be able to look at and learn, you won't find any of that in Braille. You will find it hard to get a list of Celtic or other tunes, Jazz standards, etc. It's more available now than it was, via the Internet and refreshable Braille. If you're reasonably good at transcription you can write it down yourself from an mp3 file, but then again you're left with writing down someone's interpretation rather than the original.
All of this to say, I am no master, and make no pretenses of being one. There are probably others on here who have scaled greater heights than I did: but your life will be simpler if you can enter it in to a Refreshable Braille device, rather than using a Braille writer or slate and stylus, where you cannot make corrections when you see that something you wrote down was incorrect.
And helping a sighted person with their music is very challenging because ours looks drastically different than theirs.
I'm new to using Brail music. Is it possible to find some libraries where you can download printable files on the internet?
If you have a WebBraille acount with NLS you can get it there. They are in BRF format though the files have the extension brm.
If you are in a sighted choir, you will find braille music invaluable. There is a misconception that braille music is simply too hard, or is archaic. I fear these people are not being taught correctly or are not commencing with an open mind.
I was lucky enough to begin braille music at an early age, around 6 or 7.
Eventually, you will automatically recognise the various shapes as notes rather than literary braille. You will think of n not as an n but as a c minim, or half note if you will.
I have never been able to read two lines, a left and right hand simultaneously, and frankly would be amazed if anybody could mentally process this, though I'm not saying it's impossible.
I won't deny that learning a braille piano score is a slog, and it's most useful for vocal majors, but for those who aren't always able to source recordings of works they wish to play, it can be a god-send
Hi All,
Thanks for all the info on Music Braille. I can't read with both hands though I really want to because my teacher states that I read left hand with right and play it with the left hand. I started learning music braille at around 9, but it was very hard. Now that I'm older, it's a bit easier, but learning something simple like a Bach minuete really eats my time. I think it would be easier to learn it by ear, but Music braille can also come in handy in some cases I think. I think I have the same music braille dictionary as LeoGuardian, but I have to check, since I haven't had time to look through it and it's been kind of sitting on my bookshelf gathering dust.
Oooh all I can say is reading with both hands is far far far simpler than you can possibly imagine that it is.
My parents were told by some instructor when I was 8 to have me read with one hand and play with the other. I don't remember which parent, but one of them just said 'Why not read both hands with both?' This is exactly the type of picture a sighted person gets of their scores, and you get so much more out of it. I admit, it is rather a slog, but I still think it's ultimately easier to read the music than to listen and try to pick out what is the intent and what is just interpretation. Plus, once you start doing Braille music, you'll end up jotting down notes on what you're listening to anyway.
I'm sure that there are people who are way faster at it than I was, it always took months to memorize a single Sonata for me, but you won't get as fast as a sight reader ever, except for Choir I guess. I didn't realy enter that space seriously but if I had, Braille music would have certainly been invaluable.
You did sonatas with Braille Music? Wow! I've been studying a mix of it and theory for a year and I have only gotten to a Minuete in F from the notebook of Anna Madgalaena by Bach.
I'm afraid if I read with both, my teacher will yell at me. She teaches it a Perkins, so I don't want to disobey her, I don't want an angry music braille teach on my hands. It just seems so hard. I'm not saying I can't do it, I'm just saying that it takes much more time to learn music with it, then listen to it and then learn. When I'm studying for my piano clss, my friend comes over, and plays me a bit of the right hand, then a bit of the left hand, then I play them back and connect them. He then tells me which fingers to put where, 4th on f sharp, 3d on g etc. This only happenes if I put them in the wrong place while playing.
Honestly, the most experience I've had with brail music without having an entirely too difficult time comprehending it, would've been back when I was taking a highschool choir class, and had to "sight"read. It didn't seem like the easiest thing to do, but it sounds much easier than trying to read the sheet music and play an instrument at the same time. The easiest way for me to learn to play songs on an instrument like the piano, for example, has always been by ear. But the last few times I've tryed to play the piano, I kept forgetting what notes I was supposed to be playing, so I think I might practice playing and reading the music at the same time. That having been said, do any of you know of any good brail music teachers anywhere in texas?
o.k.
I* realize there is like a problemo with folks
bumping a topic forward
except to say that by POSTing here
then this Post becomes a
Ready Reference for me
to refer back too.
This i find of interest.
Thanks,
C.g.
Matt, you wrote: I'm afraid if I read with both, my teacher will yell at me. She teaches it a Perkins,
so I don't want to disobey her, I don't want an angry music braille teach on my hands.
Seriously? do whatever's comfortable for you. Your teacher is there to assist you with braille and possibly music, not to tell you the right and wrong way to do things.
yes, this sounds like good advice
Thanks for the advice. My teacher gave me Schuman's ditty for homework which she wants bar over bar. It's from the Primer of Braille Music. The thing with music braille for me is first it seems really hard, but when you focus on it and analyze what your supposed to be playing it gets much easier.
Regarding the post of Your Face!, I do not know of any good music braille teachers in Texas, but I agree the sight singing or reading is much simpler then playing and reading at the same time.
Thanks all for the advice and suggestions.
Matthew
...and so much I personally appreciate your
posting this Topic for then
greater becomes the advantage to take in new,
well, for me personally, new
information
regarding braille and Music.
Connie G.
..and again, Thank You Matthew
Your Very Welcome. Thanks to all for posting in this topic and helping give your feedback on this subject.
..and Again
Matthew,
Thank You
*smiles
C. Grace
Just wondering, does nyone know what 1-2 means in music braille? I saw it at the end of a line of the left ahnd then at the end of the line in the right hand. I've e-mailed my teacher about but she still hasn't answered.
The numbers 1-2?
That means repeat measures 1 and 2.
Thanks. I didn't think of that, I thought it would be something really complex.
And learning is given to continue...
Leo, What does a lower g, dots 2 3 5 and 6 mean? It looks like the were contraction in littarary braille and comes after a quarter note, g quarter I think. Also what does it mean if I see dots 1 and 4, like c in littarary braille right next to the right hand symbol?
Thanks for helping me out,
Matthew
Matthew,
moving this topic forward
Thanks.
I found that the C I reffered to in my last post was actually the measure number 3. I learned what I was assigned and am glad it is out of the way. Thanks to all for the wonderful music braille info.
keeping this Topic
...moving forward
Yes that's true, now for the lower g or rather the bottom 4 cells in the matrix:
It means repeat last. So if you see a symbol like ?7 (computer Braille, or dots 1 4 5 6 followed by dots 2 3 5 6) that would mean c a quarter followed by repeat the same note, c a quarter (or 64th) again.
If that symbol is by itself, repeat full last measure.
It's most useful for repeating a measure, or when a chord's notation is written using intervals notation wich go down in the right hand, up in the left.
And as an aside, anybody else besides me think that writing dots 1 through 6 is the dumbest damn way to represent a matrix? it's really just a1 through c3 ... but that's another matter for the long-dead unscientific types who invented the system, a matrix without matrix notation.
this sounds so like a foreign language to me
I do appreciate having this new,
well what is new to me personally,
to be continued in discussion..
Yes, to those interested,
am moving this Topic of the BOARDS
forward.
I am choosing to leave a note here at this time:
Plan on returning to this Board Topic
to give a further comment.
Headed on over to another Board TOPIC
..o,k, back
{{any questions??
regarding these postings to this Topic
PLEASE refer to Sports Bar re: BASEBALL!!}}
Thanks
and Matthew,
Thank you for this interruption to your Topic here
on this particular set of Boards.
C.g. 8 am April 24, 2011 SUNDAY --
..re-entering 1:15 pm C.g. Sunday Aprl
24th, year 2011~~
Thanks so much Leo, I figured it out, I kind of agree it does seem a bit stupid but they did not know better and could not do better it's all they had to work with.
..just to keep this Topic contnuing
thusly am moving it forward with this Post.
Grace, when you move a topic forward with no content except to display that you are moving it forward, you accomplish nothing except to move everything backwards.
Rarely do I engage in discussion of how others conduct themselves on here, but I would strongly urge you to cease moving topics forward just to make a post that says moving the topic forward. Please, for the love of reasonableness and efficiency, consider.
Matt, let me elaborate just a bit on the repeat:
The one reason I alluded to earlier is a vast array of symbolic notation to illustrate finger placement, octave, and perhaps the accumulated arpeggio or other markings most seen on scores for a keyboard rather than a wind instrument: the repeat Last instruction says to repeat last repeat last, including expression and finger placement.
So, ideally, an increase in the crescendo, or even a change of finger placement, should require a rewrite of the note, as the Repeat Last Instruction command on line is now void.
That said, there are translations of musical works into Braille music I have seen where a sighted instructor has pointed out the translation errors when I told them there was a Repeat Last - a measure which for the most part repeats, but some (to a translator at least) minimal change, should not have qualified for the Repeat Last instruction - dots 2 3 5 and 6, or the bottom four coordinates in the matrix.
Like so much of Braille, you are subjected to a system not designed by the scientifically inclined, so the sybolic inexactitude is often gross, especially given who translates what.
I would say anything that comes from the Royal Society for the Blind or related from Europe seems to portray a far more exact representation, especially as the works you study become more complex. At the level I reached, I ran into this often: a translation by what was no doubt a kindhearted soul, but with the lack of exactness one would hope this soul doesn't do any engineering tasks at all.
And I was no master: never scaling the heights of many I know - at least in classical music. Classical - until 1900 or so - is where the greatest repertoire for Braille music resides: somebody put a bullet in something's head after that, as even the likes of Samuel Barbar are difficult if not impossible, to come by in Braile.
Leo,
Maybe for you this is a backwards way of thinking
...for me personally this is a forward way of thinking.
...to Matthew you are elaborate-ing
and
from this I too am enabled to gain more in learning.
THIS IS WHY IN PART THAT I AM HERE
at this set of Boards.
Connie
Braille music sucks. That's what I've gotta say about it, don't mean to sound like a country bumpkin, but ... my appologies. lol
Anyways, I read that stuff with I was young and my eye sight was real bad. I couldn't understand it from jibberish. It's sooo dificult. I can see print music, but I taught myself to just play by ear. I still play by ear now. I play the violin, btw, and the last thing I tried to read was Paganini. I quit right then and there. lol
Jessie
Jessie, I agree that it is a very hard subject to learn and read, but I do not think that it is impossible.
Matthew
There is neither vice nor virtue with Braille music; it serves the same function as print music does.
Your major challenge is that you cannot sight read, excpet for those who are vocalists have pointed out on here, and you have to compute intervals based on which hand going which direction, etc., so that a 7 from d doesn't equal d7 chord, it equals the 7th note up or down from d in the scale in which the measure or section is written.
Basically, all printed music is just a noninterpreted way of looking what the original composer intended.
I'm just adding my voice here because I learned braille music really late too. I was a musician for 10 years, but only learned braille music when I decided to brave formal music studies at the university level. I deal with piano and vocal scores. My personal method is to use both recordings and the written music. I get frustrated with the fact that notes don't line up vertically. I spend a lot of time deciphering rhythmic values to determine how things fit together for this reason so I use recordings to help me put it all together. I took conducting this past semester and I was dealing with an SATB score with each part essentially written as a different piece of music; the parts weren't written as a normal conducting score. It was not fun lol. Just my thoughts.
-Jess
I can see both sides of the coin here. Personally, I find braille music to be next to useless when I was actually in class, and found it more useful just to memorize the music while others were playing it, which of course, also had its downfalls since most sighted people in the class were not good sight readers at all. However, I found it very useful when I was at home practicing on my own where I wasn't under any time constraints. so basically, I use a combination of learning by ear and using braille music to speed up the process. This is probably especially useful for those who are professionals and only have a matter of days to perfect the peace. However, everyone has their ways of learning. I've talked to people who say braille music is nothing more than dots on a piece of paper, and i've talked to others who say they'd never be able to play music without it. so it's really a matter of what works best for the individual.
I also do both, sometime I listen, and sometimes I use Music Braille. Could someone please explain the difference between bar over bar, line over line, and section by section?
Matthew
Best description I can give of the difference:
Bar over Bar means the left and right hands are in sync, the left hand line below the right hand, and you are looking at the same measure for each in proportion to the lines. A pain in the ass to set up when writing it with a Braille writer but very useful to read.
Paragraph format is just linearly written so you have a measure of right hand followed by a measure of left, then another of right. etc. so you don't see the relationships readily.
Section by Section I am not certain of: the first two are the most common conflagrations in piano music. Now come to think of it, I have self-taught to read music for winds / recorder etc. in recent years: Section by section is where you see all of one part say one instrument and then all of the next, rather than seeing a measure for each laid next to one another.
Leo, Thanks, this info is realy helpful. At what age did you start learning Music Braille, and what textbooks/scores did you use?
Hi all,
I've been assigned a Bach Choralle for my music class. I'm trying to find the book of chorales, but can't find it. Where can I find it? I've gone to my local library for the blind, and they have no clue as to where it might be. I've looked on web-braille, but I can't find it there. Is there any way to contact NLS, and find out if they have it and if they could send it to me?
Please help if possible
Matthew
As to when I started learning, they had your typical kids' piano books in Braille through the Library of Congress. I was 8 or so when I started a bit but didn't get that serious till a few years later I think.
Anyway ask your local talking book and Braille services to either give you the number, or call and order, the book for you from the Music Section of the National Library Service. One of the hardest parts about Braille music is its grossly limited repertoire, though I am surprised about the Bach Chorales not being available. They usually have most of the standard repertoire supported by music schools of Victorian England. Now the score to A Clockwork Orange, or even modern classical pieces, you won't get in Braille that I know of.
Thanks so much.
I started using Braille music about six months ago. I had tried a few feeble attempts at learning it on my own before that but it took help from a sighted person to really start understanding it. The way I learned it was finding an exact copy of my piano teacher's piece (which wasn't always easy with Web Braille's sometimes limited collection), and just going through the piece with him note by note and checking my chart of music symbols. I was able to get a few different files of Braille music symbols and their meaning on Web Braille, and I really found those useful. Anyway, there's a couple of things I'm having trouble understanding. If there are several 16th notes next to each other with 8th notes between, how do you tell which are 16ths and which ones are 8ths? The same for interval symbols. If there's two interval symbols next to each other, like two third symbols, how do you know when to stop playing thirds?